Can AI Replace a Chartered Surveyor? A Professor Answers Honestly

In this episode, Nina Young speaks with Adrian Tagg about the changing world of building surveying education, the growing impact of AI, and why surveying remains one of the most future-proof professions.

The conversation explores how universities are adapting to AI, why practical learning still matters, and what makes building surveying such a resilient profession in an increasingly automated world. Nina and Adrian also discuss outreach, attracting younger people into surveying, and the importance of developing evidence-based judgement that technology simply cannot replace.

What We Cover

• Moving from the military into surveying
• Why building surveying is so diverse
• Sustainability and energy efficiency in practice
• The shortage of surveyors across the industry
• Outreach work with schools and young people
• Career changes and mature students in surveying
• AI and its impact on education
• Why surveying still relies on human judgement
• Professional accountability and client responsibility
• The future of surveying education

Guest Links

Adrian Tagg’s Email – a.tagg@reading.ac.uk

Useful Links

University of Reading Building Surveying page – https://www.reading.ac.uk/ready-to-study/study/2026/surveying-and-construction-management-ug/bsc-building-surveying

Guest Bio

Adrian Tagg is an Associate Professor in Building Surveying at the University of Reading and a practising chartered building surveyor. Alongside academia, Adrian continues to work within industry and has extensive experience across building pathology, professional practice and surveying education. He also served as lead author for the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors guidance note on Planned Preventative Maintenance. Adrian is passionate about professional standards, applied learning, and encouraging more people into the surveying profession.

If you want to connect with surveyors across the UK and keep up with the profession, join The Surveying Room. It is free to join and open to all types of surveyors, students, and professionals who work with them. Surveyors UK & The Surveying Room  

Connect with me - Nina Young on LinkedIn

Transcript

Welcome And Meet Adrian

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Hello and welcome. You're listening to This Is Surveying, the podcast shining a light on the people, ideas, and stories shaping this incredible profession. I'm Nina Young, founder of Surveyors UK and the Surveying Room, the community bringing surveyors together, breaking down silos, and making surveying visible. So for now, let's dive into our latest episode. Hello, everybody, and welcome to This Is Surveying. I'm your host, Nina Young, and today's guest, who I'm very pleased to welcome, is Adrian Tag. Welcome, Adrian.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Hello, Nina. Pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Yeah, it's great to have you on. So Adrian is an associate professor in building surveying at the University of Reading. And also importantly, Adrian is also a practicing chartered building surveyor as well. So I think this is going to be a really interesting session because Adrian brings his own insights across the intersection of education and industry and the profession in building survey. And so I think it's going to be interesting. And there's some topics that I know are going to be interesting for our listeners. But without further ado, as we always do,

From Military To Building Surveying

SPEAKER_00 1:25

would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself, Adrian?

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Okay, just briefly who I am. So, yes, uh childhood building surveyor, auditor at heart, academic, uh professional, and I suppose probably the king of the nerds, that some might call me in terms of building survey. It's a very nerdy profession, but it didn't start that way for me. For me, I I came into the profession later as a mature student. I served 11 years in the military, yeah, and then kind of got into this. And what it's taught me is if you're bright, engaged, enthusiastic, and passionate about the build environment, you can be a surveyor. You don't have to be an academic standout. And actually coming into education, having gone through the graduate process, worked 11 years in Brussels as an international building surveyor, I've just kind of reshaped my teaching and the course at the University of Reading to be really professional, client-facing, as well as a strong academic foundation, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

And you bring, I would imagine that you bring a lot of practical insight into it because of the fact that you're practicing and have been for a very long time.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Yeah, that's true. And it's probably one of the reasons why I think it was around 2019, I was invited by the the RICS to be the lead author for the the new guidance note in Pan Preventive Makingness PPM, with it being an academic, with being a practitioner, being a published author, I have a couple of books, so I suppose I can write them. They probably thought I've got nothing to do at university, so let's get this guy to write a standard. But it's a it was a pleasure to be part of that and work with some really high-end, high, you know, high-profile surveyors in the industry to make a difference. The guidance node definitely made a difference.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Right, okay. With regards

Why The Job Stays Interesting

SPEAKER_00 3:05

to building surveying, I always like to ask this question: what is it that you like or enjoy about building surveying? Why building surveying of of all the different disciplines that you could have done?

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Um, I suppose not being too biased, I mean it's probably the most diverse. It's the the typical jack of all trades, master of none. It works intrinsically with the existing environment. So very much with what's here already. So you're constrained by what is here historically, things didn't comply with the law and stuff like that. And it's really where society, yes, it's the it's the physical fabric of society where we eat, where uh where we live, we eat, we play, we sleep, whatever. Everything to do with buildings. It touches every one of our lives. And uh, yeah, there's a real kind of connect between the natural environment and the build environment. You know, the the build environment is shaped very much by the natural environment, and now it's looking back, the the build environment has the opposite way, it uh has the potential to cause impact upon the natural environment. So it's uh you know, it's the one profession where I think you you can really do something to to to make a difference. And I think going back to one of my former colleagues, a retired professor, he he explained very well, he said if you're passionate about the environment, by all means join a an environmental agent um action group, say Greenpeace or whatever. But equally, if you want to make a difference, join them, join the build environment. Because you can really try to influence clients and make a tangible difference to the environment.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Is it is that an area that you get involved in a lot yourself within practice, sort of the sustainable sustainability, I think that's one is one of the terms, but not as a specialist, but as a building center, you've got to be aware of it, you have to advise upon it.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

We can no longer turn our back. We haven't for some time, to be honest. Uh and with changes to legislation, energy inefficiency really is a defect in building. And if we are advising clients on defects, then energy inefficiency and sustainability is key. In fact, one of the aspects of the the new PPM guidance that is now professional standard, is that surveyors should consider sustainability at all stages of giving client advice. So it is important alongside all the traditional defects and problems with buildings. Having one eye certainly on sustainability and the environment is very, very important.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Okay. With regards to building surveying as a career, kind of have you seen changes, any changes like the the last few years, or is there anything, you know, do you see the what are the upsides? Is there any challenges, that kind of thing? What sort of paint the picture of building surveying, I guess, as a career?

SPEAKER_01 5:36

I think if you if I talk to my colleagues, got a lot of really fantastic friends and colleagues in senior positions across the industry, the the front end of teaching the really bright young adults coming into the sector, one of the biggest challenges we have is simply not enough building surveyors, also not enough other surveyors, quantity surveyors and other industry professionals. It's getting young people into what is a really dynamic, fascinating, fantastic subject area where it's all about applied knowledge. And uh yeah, I think that's that's a big problem is where do we go? And, you know, it's finding

Recruiting The Next Generation

SPEAKER_01 6:10

people that are driven, hungry, intelligent to an extent, but also keen to apply the knowledge and and trying to sell that really at the front end. I've been now doing outreach to six form colleges, which has been fantastic. So talking to not just T-levels, technical students, but also A-level bright styles who are considering, you know, law, economics, business, finance, all the sort of uh geography, history. That's all surveying. We do all of that in surveying. It very much applied surveying, it apply applied knowledge. So uh you know, it's kind of encouraging to think about that, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Yeah, it's it's I I am a little bit biased because building surveying is my favourite um of them all, and I think it is because it's so diverse and there's you just get involved in so many different aspects. You know, you've got the lease side and the legal side. Um, and I think it's just one of those professions that if more younger people were aware of it, I know they would go into it. It's almost like they don't know what it's about, they don't even know it exists. When I look back and I did I did I love geography. I love geography, did a geography A level. Had I known at that point about surveying, there was no doubt that I would have gone down that road. It I have no doubt, you know. And I think it's I think doing the outreach is such a good thing. Do you do you think there is a lot more that can be done in that space to make younger people aware of surveying as a profession?

SPEAKER_01 7:34

I think so, definitely. And I I've just seen that by going into a class full of really bright 16 to 18 year olds, some at the start of the A-level journey, some midway mid through applying for university, they're really keen about things like the environment, keen on geography, law, social law, and actually talking to them and presenting this is what we do in surveying. It's a profession where you can make a tangible difference. So it you know, it's been a really, really good. And and that's quite nice too. If I look at where we are and what we teach at the University of Reading Building Surveying, we don't have any defining requirements on A levels. I think if you're you've got good grades and you're bright at any subject matter, but you're keen to learn about the environment, you know, we can definitely convert you into a surveyor. I don't think that's an issue.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

That's great. So there is no like requirement for certain types of certain types of A-level. So you could come in with history, you could have art, something like that.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

I mean, that makes total sense because Yeah, I think I mean from an A-level perspective, that's just a proof of learning. If you're if you've got good grades, you're bright, you're engaged, that's what we want. And you've got to be interested in the environment. Don't come into it if you're not interested in buildings or all that side of things. If you're thinking, oh, it's just about a job, you could have a bit more of that. Um yeah, it's a very, very um it's been it's a profession that's been really good to me. I I don't regret for one minute um coming one from one thing and changing. It suits itself very well to mature students, people switching career breaks and stuff like that, coming into the industry. Very, very good discipline.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Yeah, I think, and touching on the fact of your background as well, I know there's a lot of veterans that move into surveying. And I think it's such an incredible area. And I think also that's uh quite an untapped area of of making more people aware, especially also in the trade side of things as well. So you've got like electricians, plumbers, even builders that move into surveying later on in life, because you know, they're physically they may be getting a bit, you know, creaky, but they also want to do something, something different. And I I agree, I think there's more and more of that happening, but I think it it's like making them aware that it is possible because many will not even think, oh, I could be a surveyor, because they won't even realise that there are those routes and that that you can take. And I think the more awareness of that, the better. Because I think I've always I've asked this question of veterans before is what is it about, or maybe maybe not, but what is it about veterans that make them well suited to surveying?

SPEAKER_01 9:58

We probably structure you're used to working in a structured environment. You know, military is a funny thing because you work within your box, you're not encouraged to think outside the box, I suppose. And but we're structured, I would think, quite driven. Disciplined is quite a big thing. But for me, I was very good at drinking tea and playing dance, so you know, it's from that perspective, it can be quite a lot of good. Um, but what I what I did realise, so you know, I was I was a non-commission, so I was I was a rankey, if you like. And my light bulb moment, and many people have come and read that, it's on the University of Reading School of Construction Management Engineering webpage, is my light bulb moment is I was a very key mountaineer in the military, and I was mountaineering and our lead officer. I was my age, really, he was just a year younger than me, I think, and he was struggling to get us off the mountain in the really bad conditions, and I took hold of the map and compass and got us off the mountain. And I got to the bottom, I thought, well, the difference here between him and me is this guy's got a degree and I don't. And that was like the bing clyde ball moments, must must get a degree. And it was logical. So I learned to lay bricks and stuff like that, and I was doing a bit of sort of, you know, building patios and garden walls and this and that and the other people. I thought, no, this is where I want to be. And it was it's been really good to me. I can't complain. It's I still don't feel uncomplete. Got a lot to do, and I don't want to stop. So yeah, it's a very interesting uh and very um rewarding profession. I'd encourage people to just have a look. If you're interested, do a bit of research, come to these open days at whichever university, it doesn't have to be our university, get a sense of what it is to be a surveyor and the link between kind of society, buildings, the environment is all there in surveying. So it's a very, very good profession.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

It is, and yeah, I absolutely love it. But one of the things also is that so m all surveyors say every day is a school day. Like you never stop learning. So if you've got a thirst for knowledge, curiosity, I think it just doesn't end, does it? Nobody knows everything. There's always something that you haven't seen ever before that will just suddenly appear or a challenge or a question. And I think that's what's so interesting about it. It's like you don't get bored. You can't get bored because there's

Teaching Client Responsibility And Reporting

SPEAKER_00 12:10

always something thrown at you.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Yeah, but I would totally agree. And it's one of the things I talk to undergraduates going through the business and trying to put them into the discipline and teach them to be forensic, analytical, have responsibility. It's tough. That's the hardest part to teach is kind of client-focused responsibility, being responsible for your actions and your words. So, you know, um, almost every job I do um at the start of that job, there's something that challenges you. And sometimes if you've got to do a really big important portfolio or project, I remember listening, I think it was um Matthew Pinson, the rower. I think forgive me, it wasn't him, I think it was him, who said in an interview at the start of that gold medal race, if there was an exit door, he'd get off the boat and leave straight away. It's like, you know, that's that's the all and nothing. And it's not quite as severe and surveying, but you do think at the start of a project, the pressure, the intensity, really complex buildings. You know what? I could just walk away from this. But you don't. You build it down, you break it down, you do your kind of do the roofs, do the facades, you break it. Huge projects. I've worked on some phenomenal sized buildings, uh, as well as some really complex historic stuff. And you break it down, it's got a process, and then you do it, and you come up with a finding, a result, and you deliver to clients. A surveying process in theory is simple. It's about kind of going to a site, recording information and presenting to a client, and that's the fundamentals of carries through. And there's lots of ways of doing that. Um, but that's the three fundamentals, really.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

I think one of the things that I would imagine is challenging for students, like you say, is is conveying, communicating with clients. Do you is it do you st have in the curriculum, do you have a lot on that area, you know, where you've got to literally relay information that can be quite complex and then translate it into something like the client receiving it can understand, or it could be a difficult conversation, that kind of thing?

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Yeah, definitely. It's part and parcel of the whole thing. So if you were to take a classic undergraduate program in surveying, we work to a framework of what has to be taught is governed by the professional bodies, the RICS and the COB. So what has to be in there is in there, is how you teach it. So our first year at Reading is taking a whole, you know, um, wide range of young people with different experiences and academic levels and course material and getting them all at one level, getting them all into built environment, getting them understand building construction technology, whatever. In the second year, we really develop that into the kind of start of the disciplines, looking at quantity surveying, construction management, building surveying, and getting them to work in groups, work with strangers, people they don't know, people they don't like, you know, get them into the field of doing it, and that ultimately presenting presenting to clients. So we run at least two projects in our in our second year where we have industry partners and yeah, our students pitch, they pitch a project, a report, an idea, a finding to industry with academic academics present. We mark them, and and the winning group is often fast-tracked through to pr present this in the the boardroom. We have a number of brilliant organizations we work with. It's a bit like The Apprentice and Allen Sugar or whatever. They come to these big offices and London. Yeah, and and and following that through in into the Farnia building surveying, I get them very much building surveying the Farnia to go to a building, do a survey, it's a building on campus, and then immediately within a couple of weeks deliver a red flag, which is the kind of heads up what's the main issues with the building. Often when you in reality you might be delivering that red flag the next day, is teaching them not to kind of jump to conclusions, be measured, have a good look at what you've done, look at your notes, go back and try and find out things you don't know, and then getting them to write an executive summary within sort of six to eight weeks, and then a final client-facing, you know, survey report, schedule of cost or something towards the end. And along that way, there's a lot of feedback and feed forward, you know, guidance and helping them out, and then you're kind of pushing them into the real world. Uh it's difficult because you can't teach them everything about survey, but you're trying to give them the basics, the basic tools to get the side.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

That that sounds really robust and it sounds like more than I imagined it would be, I think. Because I know, you know, you do come out of university and you're like, like you say, you can't teach everything and you know, all those difficult situations, and you you have to learn by also making mistakes. And I think that's that's natural, and then you don't do it again. One of the things that we touched on before before when we first

AI In Coursework And Exams

SPEAKER_00 16:45

uh had a conversation was around AI. And I think there are lots of interesting things that you brought up with regards to AI and its impact on building surveying, but also on teaching. And I think it would be really interesting to hear sort of what you are doing as from the as a University of Reading as a lecturer to try and um adapt to students just all using AI now to get answers to the questions and everything like that. What what are you kind of experiencing and what are you having to put in place to manage it?

SPEAKER_01 17:21

So AI is really, really difficult for academia. I would think from anything from the very early primary school through to degree, it's the information is there, the answer is there, the legwork isn't there, then it's a path of least resistance. So what I I've discussed with students only last week about AI and saying, listen, AI gives you information, it doesn't give you knowledge. You know, to be able to deliver a client advice, you've got to have knowledge, you've got to apply that knowledge and be responsible for your findings. So it's no doubt a challenge. And I would go as far to say is education as we kind of knew it is over in terms of this information is there. So how do we how do we make a change? How do we make a difference? Anyone listening to this could look up this quote on a search engine or AI, and it there's a very famous quote that says learning is not a spectator's thought. So the good thing about surveying is not just a book, it's not just a textbook, it's about applied knowledge. So we're lucky from that perspective. As a job, um, you know, AI cannot go away and do your survey. It's been documented. There's a lot of discussion on that. Okay, maybe a drone flies around side and spots all the dampness or spots the cracks or whatever. But you've got to go inside to verify that. You've got to, there's a bit more to it, it's a bit three-dimensional surveying. It's seeing, it's touch, it's smell, it's all sorts. So we're very lucky from that perspective. But for students, it's the norm. They they they see this thing at their fingertips, they they simply type in a question, they've got the answer without doing the reading or the legwork. It becomes a big challenge on things like essays or or things like um report submitting reports or far year dissertations, because it can write a brilliant literature review. It really can. It's very clever from that perspective. I've had students that have show me amazing quotes in their sort of draft work, and I said, Well, what is this quotes? You know, have you have you read the read this page or the chapter or certainly the book? And no, they haven't. They can simply source a quote online, it's got the page number, the book reference, all perfectly cited. But it's kind of normal for them that they don't do the legwork and read the chapter or read the two pages before and after to give a context. So it is a challenge. And in terms of the learning journey assessing students now, it's got to be the sort of sledgehammer to crack a note. We're back in the exam hall. There are kind of, if you like, three levels of security on assessing students. So you've got a secure method, which would be in in-class presentations, panel assessments, in exam hall, exam papers. You've got, I suppose, supervised, you know, kind of secure where you're with them for field work or lab work or whatever. And then totally unsecured, which is getting them to go away and research and write an essay or a report or something. And that's where the danger lies. They're not learning anything. And at the start of every module, every lecture, every session, we have an intended learning outcome in our slides. You can say at the end of this lecture, you should be able to do XYZ or have knowledge of XYZ. And by simply hitting the button, it's it's cutting the corners. I've got some good examples. I'm really more than happy to share with you if you wish.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Yeah, please, please. I'd really like I think examples bring it more to life.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Yeah. Okay, so we're now back in the exam hall, which is great. So it's a very secure way. And it's it's strange I've had to rewrite the exam questions because before when we had um COVID and we went to online teaching within a matter of weeks and got the syllabuses up and running, I would do an exam question and say, like, imagine it was a Monday morning or a Friday afternoon, no, but in the morning, definitely in the afternoon, where I say, You've got eight hours, the boss has asked you to answer this kind of client inquiry, inquiry, come back in eight hours with a structured answer. And that's what the online questions were like. And it was great. You get them going through their notes, going through the books, going through the reading, coming up with a really well uh researched answer. I mean, there were still some that didn't get in, all sorts of problems. But um, as this has been eroded with AI, the the exam, online exam, you watched uh the exam times comes in sometimes 15 minutes after the paper's open, you've got an answer in the in the inbox or something. It's amazing. How could you do that, of course? And um so I think this kind of having to, for instance, rewrite an exam for a what got one student, and think by the time this um podcast goes out, they would have sat their exam. But we have one student going through the an AI and From a former cohort has to have the kind of um online exam. And so trying to write a paper was impossible. Every time I wrote a paper, it came up with the perfect answer. Perfect answer. So in the end, I had to write a discussive question. I had done along lines of this all certain type of this building or rubbish discuss, but in brackets with reference to the course syllabus. And AI simply couldn't crack what the core syllabus was. So it's not really uh satisfying because you've got a very ambiguous question that's set to confuse AI rather than test the students. So it is definitely, definitely a challenge, the kind of path of least resistance. And then one of the things I'm realizing now is they're not getting the kind of eureka moment, they're not getting the I get it moment. So when you talk through some subject matter and the half the class get it, two or three are really confused. You sit down and talk with them because I don't get it. They say I don't get it, I just don't understand it. So go away, read this chapter, they come back, I'm not sure I get it, but have another discussion or seminar, and when they suddenly get it, it's like the penny drops. They say love it's euphoric. I understand it now, then everything falls into place.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

So uh yeah, so you know, the I do feel a sense of regret for those coming through that they won't have that whole sort of learner journey. They won't be posed with that question and have to fathom an answer. But in reality, practice is quite brutal. If I'm gonna come to do my building survey without the skill, without the knowledge, without the ability to apply the knowledge, I'm gonna get found out very, very quickly. So it's gonna be a huge challenge in how we get students through the APC. I'm quite fortunate in building surveying that I would say, apart from the kind of essay writing and stuff like that, a lot of the applied knowledge is is surve is survey work, is going out, looking at buildings, recording information, delivering advice, giving presentations, and and that simply can't do it at the moment. So it is it is by no means it's a huge or by all means it's a huge challenge, shall we say?

SPEAKER_00 24:10

I must admit, it is it like evolving? Because AI is getting more sophisticated, it's getting better and better. Are you seeing sort of things changing over the last few years as the as the models people are using are getting better? Does that mean some of the outputs they're doing are better, even though they're using AI?

SPEAKER_01 24:28

Well, yeah, they are getting better, but they're not learning. The the learning is getting worse.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

So recently when I ran my exam question through one of the AI, you know, pages, whatever uh or facilities, whatever you call them. Whatever Yeah, that's called tools, yeah. So that's that shows how old I am. So um I tell them AI is Adrian's intelligence and they will laugh. So but I would say I ran the exam question through, and then you could it literally says tick this box if you want it to be written like an exam answer. So it does come up, and a good way of kind of spotting it, if you like, is they they go away and they review some literature to do a research on a project, and it can be totally AI, it can be beautiful, written like you know, like like Shakespeare's written something.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

And then the second part is compare your findings to literature, and it's a bit like it was this, I did that, it was good. And it's like the two things are black and white. So um equally, it's really hard to kind of prove prove um cheating, it's cheating, it's academic misconduct if you're gonna use if anything other than your own work is academic misconduct, and that's kind of like the yellow card, red card in academia. That's the one that takes you out if you do that. So we can't prove it, it's very hard. And could you challenge and strike someone off for doing it? It's very, very difficult to do that. So you have to try and encourage them not to do it. And then I'm fortunate enough to have looked at two sets of results now from last year to this year. So I had building sevey as last year, sitting a second year, building pathology modules, and pathology is the the kind of diagnosis of building defects. They sit a very similar third year module. So one second year's residential, third year's commercial, second year was online, the exam results were pretty good there. And then I've got the in-person, in exam hall results, and I've got a spreadsheet colour-coded sort of red, amber, green, and of students, and there are students that did very well last year online that did hopelessly very poorly, shall we say, in the in-person exam. And I can also plot sort of red, amber, green where they sit on attendance. So generally, those that attend they get pretty good results. There's an attendance attainment. Is that there is a link. So looking at the thought of three sets of data, so you know, one online, one in person, and attendance, uh, I can kind of highlight those students who I believe would have been using AI undetected. And as a consequence, a lot of them are really struggling to get through this in their final year, which is should be pushing them into practice. And that's going to be a real challenge if, of course, they get through this final set of exams and submissions and into industry. Yeah, it's going to be a real challenge, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Yeah, it's interesting because you've you've now, like I say, you you you're now getting the data and you're able to compare prior years, different methods of assessment and things like that. With regards to then them going out into the world and then obviously going further and doing APC, do we have that data yet? Do we have that kind of the challenges of is that data visible, in fact, as to how potentially students coming through now for for the full three years, coming out, then going on to APC, having just used AI heavily, despite every single sort of mitigation that you put in place through the learning process? Is it what is happening then when they go out into the world? I don't know what your thoughts on that. It's probably a a difficult question. We maybe can't see that yet, or I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

I don't think we'll see it at the moment, but um again, if you I'm I don't sort of say have a a kind of online profile per se, but I have a lot of stuff published that I've written. And I wrote a really interesting piece. It it's in a couple, it's in the RICS journal, it's in a couple of other journals. About Yeah, so I've got that, and then you've got the RICS Building Surveying Journal, uh Build Environment Journal, and I'm publishing in another um building surveying journal, traditional journal, about kind of attainment and outcomes over the last um four generations to four decades, or not four generations, four decades. So I was party, I'm party to a group, and I I was not at the meeting, and I I read the minutes of the meeting that essentially said, Oh, build you know, modern modern graduates are basically rubbish. What are we teaching them? And I was I wasn't at that meeting, so I'll have to dig a bit deeper. So I thought, I'll have a look. So I looked across building surveying and put a research out there, questionnaire out, questionnaire out from those who were kind of going through surveying degrees in the 90s, 2000s, 2010s, and 2020s across that kind of gap. And, you know, modern graduates, well, yeah, they're doing much, the outcomes are better. So the story is this they're coming into university with higher A levels, higher A-level tariff. Well, that's great inflation, surely. A levels are getting easier. That's the answer. That's what everyone says. Okay, we'll live with that. They're getting through the degree program and they're getting more first-class degrees. Well, degrees are getting easier, surely. Well, I'm not so sure we're building surveying. I can't see the trend in my degree. Uh, it's still a tough program at the University of Reading. But we'll accept that maybe degrees are getting easier, they're getting more first class. Get into practice, they're getting chartered quicker than my generation. My generation were, you know, upper 20s, low 30s in terms of months, but they're getting chartered quicker. Okay? So has the APC got easier? I don't think so. But we do know that the APC has a lot more structured training. There are some brilliant people doing some brilliant training courses, getting students, getting graduates into the mold, getting them through the process. So, and then I looked at the final career progression to senior surveyor, associate director, and director, modern graduates from the 2000s and 2000s and tens, so we're talking 10 to 15 years into career, they're getting to associate director, director, and partner quicker. So the answer to the question or the statement that modern crowds are rubbish is it's wrong. They're just different. They're driven, they're bright, they're engaged. And some people may point out quite rightly, so we've had a a number of recessions in that period. A lot of people have left the industry. We are greying professions, so maybe they're getting quickly promoted to fill the gap into middle management. That's what I think. That would be the argument.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

But still, but then you you couldn't put them in that position without them being able to do it. The risk of liability is just too high. And and that's the problem, I suppose, with AI, going back to the whole concept of not doing the legwork and the path of least resistance, is AI is not liable. So if heaven forbid someone makes a mistake, and no surveyor I know sets out on the process of survey trying to cut corners and making themselves liable, it stops with the surveyor, the RICS member, the RICS regulated firm, who's responsible for that information, that report, that finding, that advice. They're the ones that stand to lose everything in terms of reputation, you know, being a part of litigation. So that's where it kind of draws a line, you know, is it can't it can't replace that responsibility. And and teaching that client-based focus, that kind of accountability at university is part of the process. Part of the process. And last week I had speakers in talking to second years, of which there were a lot of my graduates returning

Are Modern Graduates Really Worse

SPEAKER_01 31:55

to come and talk back to second second year students, and they were giving examples of their job. I think one of them was doing snagging and all sorts. They said, Does AI teach you how to snag things? She said, No, no way. It can't do it. So um, you know, it getting them to reflect back and give that message. And I, you know, getting students encouraging them not to use AI for a CV, not to use AI for covering net. We give lots of help on that. And employers say they they just put the AI CVs in the in the no-pile straight away. They want to see authenticity. They want, you know, AI doesn't think outside the box unless it's wrong. You know, it gives you a blanket answer, but it doesn't it doesn't, for instance, look at this old building, this host historic building and single glazing and think about well, could we could we just secondary glaze? Could we put in a heritage glazing to meet with listed building concerns? It doesn't think like that. No, and the danger is students tend to be modern students tend to kind of believe what they want. I suppose it's uh kind of sat nav, isn't it? Turn right down this one-way street. Okay. They just stop as I said, the earlier example of a student coming back with brilliantly found references and citations that having not read the chapter, they think that's normal. So it's a bit like where did they get their news feeds from? I don't really know fully. But uh it's about accountability and that AI doesn't have that. So yes, it it is a challenge in education as we know it is is gone. We have to kind of re reset and try and work out a way of doing it to give value. We're the front end of Sylvang to pass that on to the brilliant organizations who will polish up our graduates into charters of theirs.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

Oh really interesting. I think that whole kind of when you when you talk about the reliance on AI and and AI cannot do the physical inspections, it cannot smell the damp. You can't know that something feels off and just have that instinctual from experience to know that that that question in mind there's something else not here. Because it's not data, it's not captured anywhere, it it can't know it. It won't know it. And then also, like you say, the accountability piece, and I think both the physical inspection surveying, using eyes and ears to navigate, see defects, coupled with the accountability side, makes it much more of a secure profession against the evolvement of AI than many other areas, such as legal. And I know there's different areas of surveying that are impacted and seem to be more impacted than others. For example, I think QS is an area. I don't know if you ever you you've heard or seen anything about this, but because a lot of it has evolved more into desk-based analytical, you know, numbers, that's where AI does its thing if you've got the data. But I think with building surveying and other areas such as residential surveying is another good example of commercial surveying. I think when you're coupled with the accountability, it's not liable. So a lot of people, you know, are basically that there's things that are coming out now in residential surveying, software solutions, where literally you can scan a room with your phone and it's going to look for defects. You know, these things have been tested and been tried out through, you know, as a as a quick win to find out problems with a house when you look around it with an estate agent. But the problem is there is no accountability there, there's no professional judgment or opinion insights. And that you can see one crack, but how does that actually know from that image that it is actually something significant or not? You need to look around the rest of the building.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

Yeah, we we spend a second lecture of the building pathology module to second-year students literally discussing crack patterns. So the type of crack, the shape of crack, the width of it, the underlying conditions and reasons, um, developing an evidence-based opinion is really important. So, you know, we we do a lot of that. We do a lot of things when I tell them a lot of stuff and I show them a lot of pictures, and they all nod with agreement. They say, Yep, I agree. It must be this type of movement. I say, Yeah, me too. But then I say it turned out to be something else. And they say, How do you know? And I say, Because only when we opened up that did we see, you know, a corroding piece of metal inside the facade that was causing the expansion. You know what I mean? Yeah. So it's part of it is yeah, you you've got to expect the unexpected, uh, but being able to deliver to a client the best possible advice based upon the information as presented. That is it, that is it. And and if for some reason you you you get it wrong and the client says you got it wrong, then it's it's backtracking and saying, you know, reverse engineering how you got to that decision. Would I have made a different decision? Probably not, based upon the information presented. And that's where you know AI doesn't have that um that responsibility. And I think that's that's the danger. You know, on the on the on the funny side, when of course I wrote to an article a long time ago, a couple of years ago, uh, can can AI replace the building surveyor? I did a questionnaire out to uh lots of people in industry, and and someone said, well, if it did replace the building surveyor the Christmas deal would be rather boring. So um that was quite funny. So um, yeah, I think just going back on the QS side though, that's quite interesting because I was talking to QS's um this last week in some in QS in industry, working on some really complex, massive schemes in the Middle East and stuff like that. And they were saying, you know, of course, AI and the numbers and doing the kind of um some of the dissection of the numbers. I suppose that could be something that could be done. But they were faced with having to make rapid changes um to schemes, value engineering discussing with clients and architects on it's a huge, huge schemes in the Middle East and stuff like that due to the current crisis and having to be dynamic and think about things. And actually that they said AI can't do that, having to have those soft skills and discussions with the client, discussion with the architect, and say, well, this doesn't work. Um, but if we do this and this option and that option we run for two years, we could we could generate enough savings to then do what we're doing in two or three years' time. So, whereas if you think of the kind of pure analysis of numbers, it's something that AI potentially could be doing. That client-side, client focus and value engineering and having a lot of that discussion, you know, chopping and changing materials and stuff like that, I don't think AI's quite got a handle on that either. So um as a surveying profession, it's good. And we see it maybe it's something to do with um, you know, our kind of recruitment numbers that are quite good coming into this next academic year. I mean, um obviously we're waiting for the full figures to be released in when they've sat their A levels, but provisionally the numbers look great. And I wonder whether there's a kickback if you're a a parent advising your son or daughter on a on a profession and career that is considered to be AI proof, then perhaps surveying and construction is definitely one of them.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

I think that yeah, I think that's true because a lot a lot of the things that I I see and hear and read about is so many like thought leaders, people across AI are talking about the fact, and these are like really senior people, scientists and things, are literally saying if you have a profession that involves physical work where you have to interact with people, physically go out, do things, it is the safest area you can be in. So I guess in part, that's a huge proportion of what surveying is. So I think I think it it probably will run true because I know people I know and things that have young children, you know, even j just recently they were saying, Well, what roles are safe? And I said, Well, anything that kind of involves, you know, a physical, you know, to be something and interpret something and that opinion and then liaising with other people in interaction. He said, it's going to be safe for a very, very long time. We're not going to have robots climbing the stairs anytime soon into a into a loft or crawling

Why Surveys Need Human Judgement

SPEAKER_00 39:55

down into a basement, are we? I don't think anytime soon that's happening.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

No, and that would be the really the kind of strange thing for someone who's rather old school dinosaur, as they all have a laugh at make students, I'm sure. Um you know, and and and principled and and all these things. But actually it would be quite kind of poignant if AI was to in fact increase the number of buildings of S because um because it's a profession that can't be done by AI. So um I think that would be quite I'd find that very amusing. You know, we never know. But um, you know, it's there's a lot to run, but actually, let's not forget the academic journey. It's a voyager discovery. It's wonder wonderful to to go through the process to learn and and find things and do things and realize, and then it's baby steps, you did your first survey, then you go on into a practice and you're you're you're really looked after, you're line managed, you're you go off and do your stuff, you get to the point where you can sit your APC because it's a you know assessment of professional competence, you're competent, you've got your applied knowledge, you get your RICS letters, your salary rockets, and you have a great time with it, and it's the passport to travel. It's a wonderful journey. And let's not forget that that education plays a really, really important part in there. And I'm like, why would you want to cut corners? You know, why would you want to kind of get to the end of a movie without watching a movie? Why would you want to get to a destination without the journey? I don't get it. And for that reason, I do regret that the younger generation will will miss out on the actual experiential learning, experiential understanding. Because you can't get past or you can't fast track into industry without having that ability to develop evidence-based opinion and be liable for your findings. So at some point you're going to have to knuckle down and read and understand and apply the knowledge. So let's keep it as it is at the front end in education.

SPEAKER_00 41:51

Yeah. I think that's a really nice uh way to end this uh conversation as well, is that coming back to the importance of education. And what I found really interesting is is how you're having to adapt, because I know it's having a huge impact on education across the board, and how literally everything got universities, colleges, everyone's having to try and adapt to this new thing that's suddenly come in, where students can just cheat all day long if they want to and take that short route. So everyone's having to get cleverer at how to then do assessments, and it's interesting moving from COVID online to now more back to the in-person is is one good way of doing it and dealing with it. But no, I've really enjoyed our conversation, Adrian, because as you say, you are a practicing also a practicing building surveyor. And I think that must be very valuable to your students because you're you're constantly you you will still be experiencing new things, new examples of things, things maybe you haven't seen, and then you can bring that into the classroom all the time. I think I think no knowing from some studies I've done in the past, those those lecturers and teachers that literally can bring real life examples into it. I think is just you don't forget, you don't forget the stories and the anecdotes and the things that you I'm sure will probably share with your students.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

Yeah, and I think that that goes back to almost the first thing we talked about that you know, learning's not a spectator sport. You know, I can come in and I'm often coming on a on a a week after a survey. I can't believe what I've seen. I'm so excited to show something I've seen on the survey and how this might have helped with the lecture. Uh, and also how I say I've never seen this before. And they can't believe it. You're a nearly a 25, 30 year career in the profession and you're still still learning still. It's true. It's absolutely true. So um, yeah, and and some of the other stuff that they they they kind of get amused about when you say, I'd I'd love to show you, but I I've signed a NDA non disclosure agreement. So, and they can't believe that there is still a lot of secrecy, and I say, Yeah, you've got to be discreet, and and that sort of stuff is carried through the profession. So that this it's been a great uh reward to me. It's a very rewarding career. I do feel like I'm only just sort of scratching the surface. There's so much more I want to do. Uh Long as I've got time to do it. So yeah, it's a pleasure to speak to you.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

Yeah, it's been a pleasure to speak to you. And would you I think one of the things is to encourage more surveyors, experienced surveyors, to come in to academia. I don't know what your thoughts are. Do we need do we need more of that practicing surveyors moving into the academia space? Just uh just a quick question before we we finish up for today.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

I think so. I think it is really valuable. There are increasingly, I would call the sort of new, new wave of academics, if you like. Then they're still fair, we're still fairly old people. We've we've had a career and we've still got a career, but we want that kind of one one foot in each camp, definitely. And it works really well. I've got I've got I have some brilliant colleagues at the University of Reading who have practice profile and have um, you know, uh great lecturers. But equally we have some very, very brilliant junior to senior pure academics who are researching some of the most complex theories on sustainability and the built environment, and and there's a place for them too. There's a place the academia, it doesn't solely have to be practice-based, but it there's a real balance between the two, I'd say.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Yeah. Yeah. Super. Well, thank you very much for today, Adrian. I've really enjoyed our conversation. It's gonna be uh it's gonna be a good one to get out because I think there is that intersection between academia and the industry, but also I think the AI challenges across education is something that's increasingly talked about. So it's been good to get your

Subscribe Review And Join The Community

SPEAKER_00 45:20

insights today. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 45:22

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 45:23

Thank you for listening to This Is Surveying. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review. It really helps more people discover the podcast and supports the work we're doing to raise awareness of the profession. You can also join the Surveying Room, the free and independent community from Surveys UK, bringing surveys together, breaking down silos, and of course making surveying visible. Just head over to surveyors UK.com to learn more and join today. All the links discussed in today's episode are included in the show notes.